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[Music]
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[Music]
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welcome to this edition of what the
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biomass it’s the wind turbine a
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discussion of sustainable living and
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what that means to you and me I’m Jay Warmke

and I’m Annie Warmke and today
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we’re gonna talk about wind energy or
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the answer my friend is blowin in the
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wind and you didn’t even sink it sink it
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sing it so let’s talk about wind energy
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okay so J I know this is fascinating
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stuff and I’m gonna try my best to be
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fascinated today so how about if you
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start with the state of wind energy
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today in the US you can probably tell
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I’ve presented her with a list of things
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to ask me about okay otherwise we’d be
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talking about some very different things
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so let me just tell you where we are
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today with wind wind as of 2018 when you
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talk about generating capacity these
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numbers start to be meaningless capacity
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capacity means how much energy these
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systems wind turbines primarily can
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generate and we’re at about 96 thousand
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megawatts of nameplate capacity which
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doesn’t make a whole lot of it’s not a
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statistic that helps you a lot and until
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you understand that’s about four times
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as much as ten years ago so this so
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where were we 10 years ago I mean it
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sounds like a lot but it’s not it’s
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growing well if you think about
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electricity in the United States the
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decades of the 30s the 40s in the 50s
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was primarily water right that was our
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main source of electricity like hydro
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yeah yeah hydro the Hoover Dam and
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things like that then you get into the
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60s 70s and 80s and they built a whole
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lot of coal power plants that we sort of
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transition because water is limited
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because it has to be next to a river or
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some sort of water source coal can be
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kind of wherever except it still needs
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to be near water because they need to
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cool the turbines and everything so but
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in the 70s and 80s we got into nuclear
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you know clean safe too cheap to meter
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new
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clear and and if you look at the
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development of these they go up and then
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they kind of peter out so the after the
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80s lost interest in coal after the 80s
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lost interest in nuclear natural gas was
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lost interest the industry are still
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fighting over I know well they talk but
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not don’t look at what they say look at
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what they’re doing and they’re just not
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building these plants so in the 90s and
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the 2000s it was natural gas that’s what
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was being developed that’s what was
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being installed as far as electrical
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generating and all of these except for
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except for hydro are basically boiling
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water and using the steam to run a wind
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turbine art to run a wind turbine to run
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a generating a turbine of some sort of
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generator but now 2010 and beyond we’ve
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moved into the age of of solar and wind
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and today we’re talking about wind the
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answer my friend so this is where we’re
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at wind and solar today are the cheapest
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form of electricity that there is and
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that is what’s being built and it’s
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purely driven by economics so if I go
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back further further into the days of
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wind energy as with almost everything
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wind turbines or wind mills were quite
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prevalent in Persia in the years 500 to
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800 or so and of course ancient China
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actually make energy didn’t they just
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pump water up they pumped water they
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pump water in the ground grain but that
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was energy that was where the two
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functions they really needed but but
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really it was the Persians that were the
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big developers of wind energy and during
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the Crusades when they sent when the
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Europeans sent all of these people down
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into the Middle East to to kill all the
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heathens as they would say they brought
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this technology back to Europe so in the
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11th in the 1100s they started actually
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building them some of the first recorded
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wind turbines are in the area near
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Yorkshire in in England
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in 1811 85 but is it called a turbine or
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is it called it’s a windmill so what’s
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the difference between a windmill and a
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turbine
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well windmill typically is going to be
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grinding grain or pumping water or when
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turbine is generating electricity that’s
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really where the distinction you hear
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those terms used interchangeably a lot
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but it’s not it’s not accurate well
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they’re also I mean if you’ve ever been
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where there’s a windmill like when we
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would be in Belgium it’s so incredible
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oh they’re beautiful
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oh my god but it’s so mammoth and it you
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know creaks and it’s just an amazing
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well some of these early ones and I
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remember we saw some like an in the
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Norfolk area in England they they call
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them post bill where the entire building
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shifts with the wind so it’s not just
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the blades but but when the wind blows
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from different directions the entire
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building is on a pivot wheel and the
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whole thing spins and and those were
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some of the very earliest wind turbines
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and windmills I keep saying wind
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turbines but one that was built and this
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is a history of any new technology in
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1191 near burry st. Edmund’s one of our
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old stomping grounds in England which
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they they built a windmill and the
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church made them tear it down what
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church is that the Catholic Church of
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course one in England and in fact that
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same year that same year Pope Celestine
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the third he was he was 80 85 years old
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when he was ordained Pope so a young
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whippersnapper
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and he declared well you know the the
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two main energy sources of this time
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period were water mills that were on
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rivers you know in the ground grain and
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and windmills well the lord of the manor
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owned the water mill and and owned the
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water that flowed through his property
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but who owned the wind right that was a
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big issue
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the Pope apparently well the Pope this
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that the wind was owned by God and as
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God’s representative on earth he was
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collecting somebody had to sew so they
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actually made it that you could only
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build a windmill through papal
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declaration or agreement and then you
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had to pay the Pope for the right to use
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the energy of the wind and I presume he
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paid God his cut I’m sure but and this
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is the same guy he was not such a nice
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guy but this was during the period of
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Richard the Lionheart and actually the
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Pope was considered complicit in the
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kidnapping of Richard the Lionheart in
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which they extorted a hundred thousand
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pounds for his release so that there’s a
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lot of windmills maybe all right so so
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then we began to move we move forward
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several centuries into the modern era
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right of wind mill and now we’re getting
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into wind turbine but we have had
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windmills in this country they’re metal
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and they are out in the plains where
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it’s right where it’s flat and that
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would just pump water from deep in the
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ground
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yeah in fact it was gosh I don’t
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remember the guys name it’s like
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Hathaway or something like that he
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actually was an Ohio native who
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developed those little the ones you see
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in all the old westerns up on towers and
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they’re pumping water and and in many
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respects it was the development of that
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windmill and you’re right it was a
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windmill that helped settle the West
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because the railroads could not have
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moved forward without that windmill to
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pump water for the for the locomotion
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they’re actually the government the USDA
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is actually giving grants now for people
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to install windmills exactly like that
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again so they can have water sources and
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remote places well everything old is new
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again that’s right so but when we got
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into wind turbines now I’d love to talk
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about those scotsman right right around
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the 8th late 1800s
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well fellow named James Blyth who is
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largely credited with actually creating
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the
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first wind turbine and he installed it
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on his vacation holiday cottage in the
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city and the village of merry Kirk in
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1887 so this is a fairly new 1887 that’s
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that’s not that long ago and he called
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it in fact he got a patent for it in
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1891 he called the wind engine and he
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offered to build a system of electrical
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generation for the town of merry Kirk or
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the village of merry Kirk but he was
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soundly rejected by the locals because
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they determined that electricity was the
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work of the devil I think a lot of
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people thought that I think a lot of
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people think of that today so instead he
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built one for a lunatic asylum because
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apparently the lunatics did not care
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whether it was the work of the devil or
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not
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then another Ohioan charles brush lived
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on a farm ten miles south of downtown
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cleveland which is hard to imagine there
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would be a big farm ten miles from
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downtown cleveland but there was at this
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time and he was an engineer who had made
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a fortune making generators and he
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settled in and in 1888 he built a very
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large wind turbine and this was a true
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winter in effect at 12 kW wind turbine
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12 kilowatts this thing would power a
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modern home for sure and and he built
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that and it operated at his home for
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over 20 years and quite the quite the
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invention fact many people will say
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that’s the true first wind turbine but
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those are only people from Ohio not from
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Scotland yeah and then Paul lacor who is
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a Danish fellow a Dame at the friends
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yeah he actually created in in again in
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the late 1800s 1897 the first wind
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turbine that incorporated aerodynamic
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design into the blades so now you’re
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starting to see these blades like with
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the shape of an airplane wing that start
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to use the motion of the air flowing
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over to get greater efficiencies I’m
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like and I think he was the one who
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determined that the fewer the blades the
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better the efficiency of the wind
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turbine in fact a wind turbine with only
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one blade will be most efficient yeah
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except this out of balance
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so you really end up with three blades
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because they create a balance and if you
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think about it one blade is always
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falling which then helps the other ones
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to get a little bit of momentum and
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they’re spinning you know what strikes
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me though when you’re telling me this is
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that really probably the only thing
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that’s held back the fact that we
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haven’t really used wind is because of
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all these other like fossil fuel and so
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forth they were easier to come by
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because it’s really a matter of setting
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them on fire or creating heat with with
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them in some way whereas with wind we
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just couldn’t quite figure out how to
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harness it well some and that’s always
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the case with any and when any energy
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alternative and with almost anything if
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the alternatives are cheaper then it’s
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going to retard the growth of a new and
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emerging technology but now the energy
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alternatives are not cheaper okay but
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what’s cheaper you know this is one of
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the challenges is we never say what’s
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the true cost and if we look at the true
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cost of these paths sources of energy
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it’s the cost to society and to the
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environment is unbelievable but we’ve
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never ever really put that true cost
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together wind it already exists well
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you’re talking about externalized costs
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you know the cost of cleaning up a coal
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mine or the cost of what it’s done to
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the people who expect a pic pic I know
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but I’m just saying when you say that
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cost it is not cheaper and this is very
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frustrating to hear alright we’ll say
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this the good news is it’s no longer
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cheaper even if you ignore externalize
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costs so actually when you look at the
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economics of this moment this very
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moment of our existence wind and solar
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the kind of neck-and-neck
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but we buy electricity in kilowatt hours
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you know when you get your bill North
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America yeah everywhere this is just how
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you buy it here in in America in in the
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United States of America the the cost is
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about 12 cents per kilowatt hour on
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average the cost of generating that
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power using wind and solar is about
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to sense the cost somebody’s getting
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rich oh yeah well there’s transportation
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distribution profits and paying off
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legislators all of those are built into
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the cost so then you also have natural
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gas which is about four cents and you’ve
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got coal which is six cents or so so
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actually when the solar are about a
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third the cost of coal and about half
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the cost of natural gas even with
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externalize cost so you’ve been
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listening to win the biomass hits the
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wind turbine with Jay and Annie Warmke, sorry I’m not practiced at this
 
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and we’re reminding you that it’s the
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end of the world as we know it and thank
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God and it’s the end of that station
14:21
announcement there so all right keep me
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on track Annie okay well so let’s talk a
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little bit about barriers what what’s
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stopping us from just whole hog
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everything’s gonna be wind well and and
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there are some legitimate barriers I
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mean you’re saying one is some in a lot
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of places there’s not enough wind to
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make it practical there’s a lot of hot
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air though yeah but that’s only at the
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Statehouse so but there are some areas
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you know we we all know in the flatlands
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and the plains you know there’s a lot of
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a lot of wind that’s consistent but you
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get into the hills and yeah so I read a
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thing about the fact that it’s just a
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matter of getting up high enough in most
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places sure yeah but that height can be
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prohibitively expensive because you’ve
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got a big Tower in fact there’s some new
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technologies that are really fascinating
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like they have a helium-filled wind
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turbine essentially you can tether and
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raise up in you know many many thousands
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of feet up in into the sky there’s some
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floating wind turbines of course on the
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ocean there’s a lot more but so a more
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wind a lot more wind then then on land
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typically inconsistent government
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policies is a big issue
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you know on-again-off-again you get one
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political party that says therefore one
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that says they’re against it in the
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state of Ohio for instance in 2014 they
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passed a law that said alright you need
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to set back from the property line about
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1300 feet any wind turbine well that
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made wind development almost impractical
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in most places it’s some based on the
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height of the wind turbine so you say
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alright if it’s gonna be you know it’s
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got to be 1.1 or 1.2 times the height so
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in case the thing falls over it doesn’t
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land on someone else’s property which
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which makes sense but when you start
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saying okay you need to go a quarter of
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a mile back from the property line it
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makes it impractical so the net effect
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was about two and a half billion dollars
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worth of projects that were already
16:30
lined up just simply left the state and
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then now they’re talking about bringing
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it back as Amazon wants wind and it’s
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all the political and I will say that
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I’ve recently read that there are a
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number of farmers that have signed on to
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have wind farms on their property and
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this has allowed them to stay in
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business with the fluctuating costs and
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the government pricing and everything
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and so farmers have been slow to come to
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renewable energy but when they see that
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there’s a profit to be made and it’s
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going to keep them on their land they’re
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changing their tune sure and one of the
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advantages of wind of course as an
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energy source is you can use the land
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where it’s located about 95 percent of
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it for other things like growing crops
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or raising animals it does not disrupt
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the land and it can be restored back to
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its original state
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pretty easily if you decided to get rid
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of the wind zone so I have a question
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now sure so let’s say that I had a wind
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turbine on my property and it’s
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generating electricity how is that more
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safe than if I had some electrical lines
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going you know that were generated from
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coal or whatever so there’s a lot of
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energy on those lines that’s passing
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across your property is it the same for
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the wind turbine ores that are those
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lines buried no typically what you need
17:57
is to be located near some of those long
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to get the power on to the grid and
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that’s another barrier to wind because
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there has to be a distribution system
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from the property from where the wind is
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is located and generating electricity to
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where the people are who are gonna use
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it
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so typically wind systems wind farms
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don’t create these high powered
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transmission lines what they do is
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they’re located near where they already
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exist so that they can sort of piggyback
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on to them and transport the power over
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but it’s not going to solve that problem
18:33
of stray electricity coming from these
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high tensions very bad for farm well
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that’s an issue but those already exist
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so so but that is a barrier make it okay
18:43
come on you’re so picky about things
18:46
like no all right health and health see
18:49
don’t kill things you know what this is
18:51
technology
18:52
people are making money get out of the
18:54
way yeah owning and land restrictions as
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you mentioned height of the towers that
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can cause some problems with aviation
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like being near airports but all of
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these are the same issues that come in
19:04
with cell towers and and things of that
19:06
nature and there actually is a lot of
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radio wave interference from these wind
19:13
turbines so if you had a television
19:15
station or something like that it could
19:17
disrupt the broadcasting range but those
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are some legitimate barriers to entry
19:22
but I wanted to talk about some of the
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myths that are around wind generation so
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if I were to tell you wind generation
19:30
what’s the problem with wind turbines
19:32
what’s the first thing comes to your
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mind that there’s a hum okay so noise I
19:38
was going after birds and bats but hum
19:39
is that they’re noisy okay people will
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say okay there are noisy well they’re
19:43
not really in fact at 300 meters but
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it’s about as far as the setback is
19:54
anyway they make about 40 decibels of
19:57
noise which is about the same as your
20:00
refrigerator
20:00
okay that’s constant yeah but it’s
20:04
usually at that distance the rustling of
20:07
leaves in a tree will be louder than the
20:09
wind turbine itself but leaves don’t
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rustle consist
20:13
leaves I can wait away boys okay but
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this is like white noise and I’m not
20:19
going to convince you on that could it
20:20
be harmful to humans and livestock oh
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that’s another myth right in fact the
20:24
wait I mean that that sound no no it
20:28
just puts them to studies yes they did
20:32
right oh yes they did in fact one of the
20:34
things that they will they will argue
20:37
that opponents of wind turbines they
20:39
they they argue that it causes almost
20:42
any disease you can think of chickens
20:44
won’t lay eggs
20:45
earthworms vanish from the property it
20:47
will turn your hair gray you’ll lose
20:50
energy you’ll be fatigued you’ll get
20:52
tumors you’ll lose electricity itself
20:55
weight loss weight gain sleep problems
20:59
hundreds of cattles and goats cattles
21:01
cattle and goats are dying horrible this
21:05
is the problem is there is no there have
21:09
been more than 25 scientific studies
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well who paid for them I don’t I don’t
21:14
know the win the industry anyway found
21:16
no link in fact they refer to it as the
21:18
nocebo effect nocebo that was SIBO
21:22
instead of placebo you say basically if
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I believe there’s a problem there’s
21:26
going to be a problem I mean the bottom
21:28
line is if I hate wind turbines I’m not
21:30
gonna like having them next to me well
21:32
they do say they’re an eyesore but I
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don’t see that all right but I just say
21:35
look if they are located near where
21:37
these big towers are for the electric
21:39
generation mm-hm that is those all those
21:42
things they’ve listed are things that
21:44
are caused by that high energy
21:47
concentration on those lines what did
21:49
you call it leakage or something yeah I
21:52
mean it’s it does straight out oh there
21:54
is a certain amount of voltage because
21:56
because electrical voltage will leak out
21:58
of the conductor insulation and when
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you’re sending this power which is
22:04
oftentimes it like 700,000 volts it will
22:08
leak and stray in fact we were doing a
22:10
project down near the Ohio River and I
22:13
could hear the grass crackling
22:15
underneath these high-powered electric
22:18
lines because of static discharge in
22:20
fact you could hold up a fluorescent
22:23
lightbulb and it will light but this is
22:25
why people in livestock died
22:26
cancer right but it’s not the wind
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turbine no this is what I’m saying it’s
22:30
the electricity and that and and there
22:31
may be that issue the other thing is
22:33
about turbines kill bats and birds you
22:36
know we always hear oh yeah wind turbine
22:38
they kill birds and of course though
22:39
they do the studies do show that on
22:43
average a wind turbine a specific wind
22:47
turbine will kill between 6 and 13 birds
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a year
22:53
well on the whole they’ll say about 14
22:56
or 140,000 Birds a year will be killed
23:00
by wind turbines that compares to about
23:02
a hundred and thirty million birds from
23:05
power lines eighty million from cars a
23:10
hundred million to a billion from birds
23:12
flying into buildings cell towers 40 to
23:16
50 million and my favorite 220 million
23:19
from cats
23:21
so let’s eliminate cats please as
23:24
opposed to wind turbines that are just a
23:27
drop in the bucket so it’s basically
23:28
saying you know like we have any birds
23:30
left life sucks if you’re a bird I mean
23:32
everything everything Lions we’ve all
23:36
seen birds fly into a picture window or
23:39
something well are you so anyway so
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birds do get killed but wind turbines
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are not a factor in that there are a lot
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of things okay I just want to say in all
23:54
honesty there are a lot of things
23:56
attached to that turbine though that do
23:58
kill I mean all those things about
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electric lines and all that stuff I mean
24:02
it’s just being let’s be honest about
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okay but if you want to live in a world
24:07
that has electricity there will be some
24:11
collateral damage do you want to
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minimize that by generating the
24:15
electricity using win or do you want to
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continue to use coal power plants
24:19
nuclear people to use less energy I want
24:22
conservation and conservation is a good
24:25
answer and actually I would argue solar
24:26
where the energy is generated where it’s
24:29
going to be consumed the true
24:32
distributed energy is a better solution
24:34
right let’s talk about wins we’re
24:36
talking about wind and there’s a problem
24:38
with the economics of local
24:40
when is that well it makes economic
24:43
sense to put up one of these great huge
24:45
wind turbines and let’s say that turbine
24:47
costs a million dollars but it’ll
24:49
service a thousand homes now the cost
24:52
per home is like a thousand dollars but
24:54
if you wanted to put up one wind turbine
24:57
to service your home the cost would be
25:00
more like sixty or seventy thousand
25:02
dollars so it’s not economical to do it
25:05
for one z 2 Z’s but it is economical
25:08
when you’re doing utility scale win with
25:11
solar it’s economical to do it on your
25:14
home 1 Z 2 Z’s the same way where the
25:17
difference between doing a utility scale
25:18
solar and an individual home Solar is
25:21
only about say 50 percent difference as
25:25
opposed to many factors so so wind is is
25:28
not as scalable when you start getting
25:30
down to small systems I love how they
25:34
always like to talk about how when they
25:38
talk about solar panels if we had a
25:40
solar array the size of Utah you know it
25:43
would power the world like that’s ever
25:44
gonna happen and it’s not a good
25:46
solution good point I know it’s silly
25:47
but I was reading a study that was
25:51
saying how much energy would it take
25:52
using wind and once again they came out
25:55
and they said alright well if we built a
25:58
wind turbine a wind farm we could
26:03
capture enough energy to run the entire
26:05
world but the wind farm would have to be
26:08
twice the size of Alaska so that’s it’s
26:11
possible but it ain’t gonna happen
26:14
but if you think about how much there
26:16
can still be because one of the
26:18
arguments is wind is not reliable that
26:21
currently when generates about six six
26:24
and a half percent of all of the
26:25
electricity used in in the United States
26:29
but there are four states Iowa Kansas
26:32
Oklahoma and South Dakota that generate
26:34
more than 30 percent of their power from
26:37
wind and actually Germany produces 40
26:41
percent of its power from wind so even
26:44
though the wind doesn’t always blow and
26:45
the Sun doesn’t always shine we have
26:48
seen that with today’s systems we can
26:50
get as much as 40 percent of our power
26:53
from
26:53
when we’re only at about 6% oh we could
26:55
get more if we had more more turbans
26:59
raised but and one of the resistance of
27:02
course is there are people who say these
27:04
things are not attractive I don’t like
27:05
the way they look and I’m always curious
27:07
as to why they get a say right I don’t
27:10
like the way telephone poles work look I
27:12
don’t like the way roads look I don’t
27:14
like the way a lot of people look how
27:15
come I don’t get a say in that you know
27:18
they’re gonna do it anyway and and it’s
27:20
just gonna happen so why is it with
27:23
renewable energy suddenly people get
27:25
this well any excuse any excuse at all
27:27
because what we’re used to we’re gonna
27:29
stay with it
27:29
thank you for listening to us when the
27:32
biomass hits the wind turbine with Jay
27:34
and Annie Warmke along with Adam Rich
27:37
our award-winning radio producer and
27:41
thank you for spending a bit of time
27:43
with us and as your grandmother probably
27:46
told you the secret to a happy and
27:48
sustainable life is one change I’ll play
27:52
nice with others clean up your own mess
27:55
build a wind turbine and eat your
27:58
vegetables any or any eat my vision yeah
28:01
I guess so
28:04
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you can find more information on living
28:40
sustainably in our unsustainable world
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at Blue Rock station calm
28:48
you
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