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00:06 [Music] 00:14 welcome to this edition of when the 00:17 biomass it’s the wind turbine a 00:18 discussion of sustainable living and 00:20 what that means to you and me I’m Jay 00:23 Warmke and I’m Annie Warmke and today 00:27 we’re gonna talk about green washing or 00:29 you know they’re lying because their 00:31 lips are moving so so what are we 00:38 talking about when we’re talking about 00:40 green washing well first off to give you 00:43 the definition of what green washing 00:45 when I read this it said when using 00:48 green PR or green marketing to 00:50 deceptively promote the perception that 00:54 an organization’s products aims or 00:56 policies are environmentally friendly so 01:01 seems like a fairly good definition a 01:03 green washing I guess the key the key 01:06 term there is you have to know you’re 01:10 doing it I guess yeah it’s it’s on 01:11 purpose deceiving okay so I wanted to 01:15 have a little bit of a disclaimer before 01:16 we start because I want to say that I 01:20 don’t care what corporation it is the 01:24 word corporation should be your dead 01:27 giveaway here that whatever they’re 01:30 telling you about anything that has to 01:33 do with sustainability or green 01:35 quote-unquote is a ploy to get you to 01:41 buy their product and they are 01:42 absolutely not capable of telling you 01:45 the whole truth about what that product 01:48 is it’s just the way it is right well I 01:50 was gonna I was gonna say and I was I 01:53 was waiting I thought you come down a 01:54 little harsher than that I’m trying not 01:56 to talk about email you’re loaded for 02:03 bear here but yeah I mean a 02:05 corporation’s motivation is to make 02:09 money I mean going through the MBA 02:10 program and all that they beat it into 02:12 you your obligation is to maximize 02:15 profits for shareholders and all of that 02:17 nonsense 02:17 so anything other than that if they’re 02:21 telling you that’s their motivation 02:22 there they’re not being truthful to you 02:25 and or themselves because their true 02:28 motivation by its very design and 02:31 definition is to try and make money and 02:33 the only reason they’re going to tell 02:34 you they’re green or they’re saving the 02:36 planet or you know they’re they’re full 02:39 of hugs is to try and get money out of 02:42 you 02:43 well that the the other side of that is 02:46 interesting because I was thinking about 02:47 it earlier that if you know the people 02:51 where you know the company not the 02:54 corporation but the company or the 02:56 business you’re buying from they don’t 02:58 have to explain it to you you know and 03:01 they’re not looking at you like you are 03:03 all you are is a consumer and all I’m 03:06 trying to do is get money out of you 03:08 they’re developing a relationship with 03:10 you they want you to come back they know 03:13 that they’re gonna stand in the grocery 03:14 line with you I mean this is a very 03:16 different kind of relationship but 03:18 here’s the thing 03:19 I got this I got this email all right 03:22 this is what motivated this particular 03:24 program I got this email from Annie’s which 03:28 I’m not familiar with the cookies people 03:30 well they apparently make pasta too 03:32 because they refer to that and and they 03:36 so I won’t read you what they sent but I 03:39 will read you my email I said I doubt 03:42 you can imagine my surprise at seeing 03:44 the word sustainability 03:46 that’s quote unquote also quote we 03:48 believe food is one of the most powerful 03:50 forces we have to protect our mother 03:52 earth that’s just so bizarre I can’t 03:55 even explain and sustainability team I 03:59 truly like to know how you turn General 04:01 Mills into a company that can honestly 04:03 claim those words are related to their 04:05 brand please prove my cynicism wrong I 04:08 work with women run owned small farm 04:10 businesses and blah blah blah blah blah 04:12 and I’d like to be able to talk to them 04:14 about what you’re doing so to say you 04:18 received some sort of email and General 04:20 Mills which is one of the largest 04:22 manufacturers of food the profits by the 04:24 monoculture 04:27 you know non organic fertilizer based 04:32 industries of this nation and they’re 04:34 claiming that what they’re doing is 04:37 great for planet Earth and you for 04:39 whatever reason we’re skeptical wrote to 04:46 miss Annie over there Miss Annie no it’s 04:49 not a person it’s a team I know it’s a 04:51 Chinese and they’ve got some weird 04:53 little like weird little bunnies poppies 04:56 poppies and bunnies that just strikes me 04:59 as being condescending on them they said 05:01 we are you u.s. Berkeley based bunnies 05:04 okay and we’re really proud of what 05:07 we’ve been able to accomplish working 05:09 alongside General Mills so this to me 05:11 seems like such a contradiction to it’s 05:15 just selling you’re selling out you know 05:17 and it made me feel angry because they 05:21 sent you they were nice they responded 05:23 to you well they my name out of 05:26 something because I clearly was 05:27 connected to sustain a bit but they ass 05:29 waste all of your doubts and now you’re 05:32 a big supporter of the entire effort no 05:34 I got mad okay I got mad at what they 05:37 wrote back because they wrote back and 05:40 went on and on and on about how great it 05:42 was that they had compromised any of 05:44 their principles or any of their culture 05:46 to work for four years with General 05:49 Mills and then they started telling me 05:51 that General Mills as a result of their 05:53 relationship was going to convert thirty 05:55 four thousand acres of conventional farm 05:58 land to certified organic by 2020 well 06:01 but that kind of cracks me up because 06:03 like if my Aunt Gladys converted thirty 06:06 five thousand acres 06:07 I would think you did pretty good at 06:09 Gladys but a company the size of General 06:11 Mills I don’t know what the number is 06:13 but thirty five thousand acres has to be 06:15 you know one one hundred thousandth of 06:17 1% of their total totally out there that 06:21 they’re doing well the other thing is 06:23 that now they’re saying that General 06:25 Mills once these parent companies 06:29 companies that are within General Mills 06:31 are connected to them to then take these 06:34 things that they’re gonna to with the 06:37 organic wheat and they now have to come 06:39 up with products 06:41 and they also said that they’re going to 06:43 make a commitment to regenerative 06:47 agriculture to do regenerative 06:50 agriculture on a million acres by I 06:53 don’t know some 2030 or something okay 06:57 I don’t know what’s their definition of 06:58 regenerative agriculture but if I begin 07:01 to think about all the products and the 07:03 billions of things that they must create 07:06 I just look at this and go this is the 07:10 ultimate in green washing and this 07:12 company Annie’s cookies or if we pasta 07:15 or whatever I mean that just it just 07:19 drives me crazy 07:20 right well this isn’t General Mills 07:22 first rodeo when it comes to green 07:24 washing they they ran through a big 07:26 controversy not too long ago with their 07:29 honey nuts Cheerios program to bring 07:33 back the bees where apparently because 07:37 of the the nicotine noid pesticides and 07:42 the GMO plantings we’ve seen a huge 07:46 reduction in pollinators so and General 07:48 Mills being one of the major 07:50 contributors to this then decided to 07:53 alleviate the problem by offering free 07:56 seed packets to people who ate their 07:59 their honey nut cheerios and and it got 08:03 so kind of silly because a lot of these 08:05 seeds were invasive plants and and it 08:07 wasn’t well thought through but but once 08:10 again that’s part of the problem with 08:11 green washing when it’s done very poorly 08:13 as in that case is it comes across 08:16 almost condescending and silly you know 08:18 we’re going to solve this let’s you know 08:21 like I’m gonna solve global hunger by 08:23 sending you a free Snickers bar you know 08:25 I mean that’s the contradiction but it 08:28 isn’t just about food because if you 08:30 look at things like the clean coal 08:32 campaign clean natural gas I mean talk 08:34 about green washing and natural gas that 08:37 makes me want to gag well the term green 08:39 washing actually came around about the 08:42 actual term apparently first used in 08:45 essay about hotels you know and the 08:47 hotels had that thing where you know 08:50 here we’re not gonna wash your your 08:52 towels because we’re saving 08:54 your towel in a certain place of doing 08:56 still doing that right want to put the 08:58 covers over your back apparently 09:00 somebody decided to see are they 09:02 actually not then spending money or 09:06 doing things that they otherwise and it 09:08 turns out they they saved nothing other 09:11 than the cost of cleaning the towel 09:13 they didn’t reduce their carbon 09:14 footprint at all they didn’t reduce 09:16 their business practices at all it was 09:19 just a pure and the person who wrote 09:20 that article called it green washing and 09:22 by by 1999 it actually made its way into 09:25 the Oxford English Dictionary and and 09:28 another term in the 1960s that this 09:31 supplanted which I thought was really 09:33 funny they called it eco pornography and 09:35 that was actually coined by a marketing 09:37 guy named Jerry 09:38 Mandor now that name has made Jerry well 09:45 maybe you’re putting the accent in the 09:46 wrong place okay well I love the name 09:49 anyway so but this gets into something 09:51 we were discussing before the actual 09:54 term is linguistic detoxification but 09:57 taking words and manipulating them to 10:00 where they no longer mean what they mean 10:02 you know it’s it’s like some of the 10:05 examples we had were were like all 10:08 natural you know what’s all natural like 10:10 there was a problem with General Mills 10:12 again where they were selling their 10:14 all-natural strawberry fruit roll-ups 10:17 but unfortunately they contain no 10:19 strawberry so how can that be 10:22 all-natural or or my favorite is when 10:24 the fad thing was a big deal and all 10:26 these sugar products were saying 10:27 contains no fat well yeah yeah it 10:29 doesn’t but still eggs are good one to 10:33 eggs and chicken as a meat because 10:36 they’ll have these catchy little careful 10:39 like free-range but what the law says is 10:43 that they only have to have so many 10:44 hours at the end just before the end of 10:46 their life to be out into a space where 10:49 there’s fresh air you know they define 10:55 the term to the point where it becomes 10:56 meaningless you know I mean no no 10:59 they’re marketing to you as the consumer 11:01 who clearly is looking for certain 11:03 things so they’re gonna have focus 11:05 groups so looking for certain words in 11:06 those focus groups 11:08 to see what people like me want to read 11:11 on the packaging or in the advertising 11:14 or here and then they’re going to use 11:16 those phrases to con us into thinking 11:18 that this animal or this meat or this 11:21 product whatever it is whether it’s 11:23 lotion for your face or clean coal or 11:26 whatever is going to be more palatable 11:29 to you because you have a different 11:31 political view and and clearly the 11:34 American public is what is moving more 11:37 towards I want I want things to be done 11:40 better and we know this from the meat 11:42 industry because the something like 11:46 sixty five percent of people are saying 11:49 they are more concerned about how that 11:51 animal was treated then if it was 11:53 organic that’s a big deal so that’s why 11:57 it says cage free or ranged or whatever 12:02 the wording is that they have for these 12:04 different chicken products but if 12:06 they’re a big corporation they’re lying 12:08 they’re absolutely lying because their 12:12 lips are moving okay okay so there are 12:14 these there was an article I saw which 12:18 is about the seven deadly sins of 12:20 greenwashing so so will will use that as 12:23 can we say try and use it as a framework 12:26 can you say that this applies to not 12:28 just food it applies to energy it 12:31 applies to all products it applies to 12:34 architectural design we’ll get the 12:36 engineering well I’m just using a 12:39 framework we’re gonna get it up okay 12:40 tell it alright but though the first 12:42 deadly sin which you’ve touched on a 12:44 little bit the same way where are we 12:45 calling it sin because it’s seven deadly 12:49 sins greed avarice all of those it’s 12:51 it’s a thing all right people it’s like 12:54 the top ten why do we pick is it 12:55 Christian thing could be I don’t know I 12:59 don’t know seven deadly sins 13:00 anyway sin sin of the hidden tradeoff 13:03 sitted sin of the hidden that sounds 13:05 like an Indiana so there’s seven sins of 13:07 greenwashing though that’s right right 13:09 right and this is suggesting that a 13:11 product is green based on a narrow set 13:14 of attributes that without attention to 13:17 the to the other issues for instance a 13:19 good example of this is 13:21 Bank of America had they’re like eco 13:24 card right there eco credit card that 13:27 said when you spend money using your 13:29 credit card then a portion of what you 13:31 spent won’t come back as cashback is 13:33 gonna buy carbon credits that off so 13:37 that’s the worst the worst right okay 13:40 well what and and it sounds all good and 13:42 everybody’s like kumbaya I’m now green 13:44 you know as I go out and buy a Rolex or 13:47 whatever the reality being that you 13:49 would actually be more environmentally 13:51 friendly if you didn’t buy stuff that’s 13:53 right that but then but then you’re 13:55 using credit cards but only one half of 13:58 one percent of whatever it is that you 14:01 spent goes towards this offset so that 14:04 would be an example of that first one 14:07 okay 14:08 well break here and we’ll say you are 14:10 listening to when the biomass it’s the 14:12 wind turbine with Jay and Annie Warmke 14:14 reminding you it is indeed the end of 14:17 the world as we know it and especially 14:19 today thank God thank God we’re not 14:21 gonna green wash that right awesome all 14:24 right the second deadly sin the sin uh 14:26 no proof right eight out of ten dentists 14:30 you know whatever so so they just sort 14:33 of say these things they give you it 14:35 sounds good but you know prove it what 14:39 is there any basis for this which leads 14:43 into the sin of vagueness right 14:46 that the claim is so vague as as to be 14:51 misunderstood like I don’t know what 14:53 would be a good example maybe a car 14:55 commercial with flowers growing out of 14:57 the tailpipe you know it’s like what 14:58 what is that what’s that telling me yeah 15:01 but I think you can get packaging yeah 15:04 and lots of things that are used on 15:06 packaging are such such baloney 15:09 well they say earth-friendly well what 15:12 is that all right well here’s another 15:13 example so most people when they think 15:15 about buying dairy product let’s say 15:19 dairy products because that’s like milk 15:21 and butter and stuff and in that section 15:24 of lots of stores there’ll be a farmer 15:26 and it’s a man and he’s got a cute 15:29 little straw hat and sitting on a 15:31 tractor and there’s a cow cute little 15:33 cow over here May 15:34 there’s some chickens running around and 15:36 that is the image they’re trying to sell 15:39 of that dairy product but in fact it 15:42 hasn’t looked like that for 65 years 15:45 well it doesn’t sell if they show you 15:47 this industrialized computer run tractor 15:50 spraying stuff for five miles and seven 15:53 feet deep in manure at the car cow 15:56 udders yeah so all right well the sin of 15:59 of worshipping false labels I guess 16:01 that’s like false idols where where they 16:04 give you the impression now that’s an 16:06 example where if you’ve got a bucolic 16:07 scene you know the some sort of we see 16:12 that a lot with the Amish made stuff you 16:14 know they give you this sense that it 16:17 somehow has something that it may or may 16:19 not have but is is this the same as the 16:22 one where we saw the commercial when we 16:24 were traveling of the guy who was 16:26 pretending to be the doctor to sell the 16:30 product in fact and he was not a doctor 16:32 we could we can stretch it to that yeah 16:35 I mean that was one of those 16:36 advertisements where everything that the 16:38 announcer was saying underneath was a 16:41 disclaimer saying what we just said 16:43 isn’t true this guy isn’t really a 16:45 doctor no there is no making it seem 16:48 like that medical community is 16:49 supporting this particular drug mm-hmm 16:52 and and Wonder bread bring build strong 16:54 bodies but what one of the things that 16:56 they found out when it comes to drugs 16:58 I was shocked as I hadn’t seen TV for 17:01 quite a long time we’re staying in a 17:03 hotel and and it was a in between the 17:07 program we were watching every 17:08 commercial was about drugs and the thing 17:13 that shocked me about it was the 17:15 research shows but they don’t even have 17:17 to say what the product is necessarily 17:20 used for and quite often they didn’t 17:22 because I look at you and say what’s 17:23 that for 17:24 but the person will go to their doctor 17:26 it’s for removing money from your wallet 17:28 that’s right and they would demand the 17:31 product and the doctor will give it okay 17:33 well you’re going down a cul-de-sac here 17:35 let’s go back to Green Line where’s your 17:41 being false labels or irrelevance well 17:44 whatever I don’t know 17:45 it’s all the same well there was a study 17:47 in 2010 that found that 95% of all 17:52 products claiming to be green were in no 17:54 way green at all yeah I’m sure 17:57 which is prezi cells because people are 18:00 wanting to believe they’re doing better 18:02 and this is the sad part is that people 18:04 are actually trying they they think 18:06 they’re doing good and in fact they’re 18:09 just being lied to and really robbed 18:12 okay the next sin the sin of irrelevance 18:14 which is making a claim that’s truthful 18:18 but nonsensical unimportant I don’t know 18:23 got a good example of something like 18:24 that 18:26 it has mint in it so therefore it’s 18:29 really healthy for you okay all right it 18:32 might be but it may be irrelevant 18:33 especially when you’re talking about 18:35 asphalt it’s mint tea or paving surfaces 18:39 contains mint which is better for the 18:41 environment you on it that’s good or the 18:45 the lesser of two evils now we see this 18:48 a lot like for instance natural gas is a 18:52 good example of that they’ll always say 18:54 well you know compared to coal natural 18:57 gas is is less polluting it’s amazing 19:02 the word natural people think it’s a 19:04 good thing 19:05 yeah well I don’t know of anything 19:07 that’s unnatural I mean it’s on planet 19:10 earth isn’t I mean that’s the problem 19:13 with all natural it’s like when they say 19:15 about chemicals you know everything is 19:17 made up of chemicals it doesn’t matter 19:19 but I don’t I don’t remember as a kid 19:21 them calling it natural gas I don’t know 19:26 I think they had a cute little cartoon 19:29 logo I’m sure of course you would 19:31 remember that but the lesser of two 19:33 evils I mean think of that it’s like 19:35 okay they’re both bad so we have to 19:36 choose one this is not a good argument 19:39 yeah no you’re either with us or you’re 19:42 against that’s right there we go I 19:43 thought they were more choices and the 19:44 sin of fibbing come on lying let’s be 19:47 honest about what that word is it’s like 19:49 and we looks like a duck and walks like 19:52 a duck definitely well and there I found 19:54 this statistic I thought was really 19:56 funny and in 1970 the first Earth Day 19:59 apparently utilities decided to jump on 20:03 board during the first Earth Day they 20:04 spent three hundred million dollars 20:06 advertising how green they were in 20:09 conjunction with the very first Earth 20:11 Day which was eight times as much as 20:13 they spent on actually trying to reduce 20:16 pollution which is great I mean if you 20:20 spend eight times as much telling people 20:22 how good you are as opposed to try 20:24 thanks write-off it doesn’t matter or 20:26 McDonald’s McDonald’s when they in 20:28 Europe when they changed their colors 20:29 from yellow and red to yellow and green 20:32 in attempt to convince people that they 20:36 were suddenly environmentally friendly 20:38 not to me that’s the relevance one right 20:40 who cares what color your logo is it 20:43 doesn’t make you better brand is so 20:45 strong when I was in China at the UN 20:48 Women’s Forum they had Ronald McDonald’s 20:52 statue and he’s sitting on a bench and 20:54 all these women would go and sit down 20:56 and he has this arm out like he’s got 20:58 his arm around the person when they sit 20:59 down there and lots of women would go 21:01 and get their picture taken and so that 21:03 night some but a lot of women from 21:05 Australia went and smashed him up and 21:08 everybody owned so all these other women 21:11 were so upset because this was such a 21:13 big deal Ronald McDonald McDonald’s was 21:15 right in the middle of this great 21:17 women’s conference and it was like this 21:19 war going on and didn’t matter what the 21:21 Australian women said about how bad 21:23 their franchise was or anything those 21:25 women were upset they were wanting to be 21:28 American sitting there with I’m kind of 21:30 upset too I mean what Ron do to you guys 21:33 come on sir all right so we’re we’re 21:38 trying to be green 21:39 the studies show people want companies 21:41 to be green obviously they’re good at 21:44 deceptive advertising manipulative 21:46 advertising so then we rely on these 21:48 third-party certifications to come in 21:50 and say all right we’re gonna come in 21:52 and look at these guys we all know 21:53 they’re liars anyway we’re going to 21:55 attest to the fact that they’re green so 21:57 then a lot of certifications dozens and 21:59 dozens I highlighted just a few but like 22:01 the LEED certification Leadership in 22:04 Energy and Environmental Design building 22:06 for buildings and and these 22:08 certifications almost and almost 22:10 inevitably as they become 22:13 accepted the flaws within them become 22:16 very apparent I know the first version 22:18 of leads people were concerned because 22:21 you could actually design and be LEED 22:23 Platinum for a building and not be 22:26 environmental at all 22:27 well it’s be fair though they were 22:29 trying to find their way but LEED just 22:31 represents buying product and it’s it’s 22:34 a way and it’s nice because a lot of 22:36 these certifications then get you 22:37 thinking they help direct the process 22:40 how can I be green if I’m building a 22:42 building well league comes along and 22:44 says alright this is the way we think 22:45 you should do it problem then is the 22:48 manufacturers who usually have the money 22:50 get involved in the process of defining 22:52 what constitutes being great well it 22:55 seems weird to me we’ve had lots of 22:57 people come that are doing LEED 22:58 certified buildings wanting to talk to 23:00 us about it and we’re like okay location 23:04 okay the way the building is facing how 23:07 about water collection how about 23:09 composting and they’re looking at us 23:11 like we’ve lost our mind and maybe it’s 23:13 a little bit better but it still comes 23:15 down to where it’s not about me yeah we 23:19 had an architect come who was trying to 23:21 build a municipal building in Columbus 23:23 and he was tasked with making it look 23:25 green yeah and and we told them all 23:28 these ways he could make it green and he 23:29 kept going it doesn’t have to be green 23:31 it just has to look like it’s green so 23:33 that’s pure green washing well one of 23:35 them that you rail against the certified 23:38 organic certified okay yeah well I think 23:40 you know again these things take on 23:44 their own life that’s what you were 23:45 explaining earlier and so USDA you know 23:48 the US Department of Agriculture has 23:50 certified organic seals the the 23:54 challenge we have with certified organic 23:55 today and this isn’t the USDA but so if 23:58 you go to Walmart and it says organic 24:01 and it came from China this is a 24:04 bold-faced lie 24:06 if it came from just about any place 24:08 like that 24:09 it’s a bold-faced lie but it sells and 24:12 they can charge a lot more money it’s 24:14 not they’re paying more money for it 24:15 they’re charging you more money but 24:17 there are other certifications like 24:19 naturally raised naturally grown that 24:22 type of thing or Energy Star that’s been 24:24 around for a long time and you see 24:26 that stamp on lots of appliances they 24:29 say the only thing it can’t be put on as 24:31 a dryer no dryer no clothing dryer as it 24:33 is energy efficient efficiency and and 24:36 then fair trade fair trade is one of 24:38 those where you say okay let’s look 24:39 beyond just the economics of it well 24:42 we’re looking at who produced it so it’s 24:45 not just about that you got this product 24:48 and it’s certified it’s about saying all 24:50 right were the people who grew this 24:52 product or produced this product paid a 24:54 fair living wage and had good conditions 24:57 to produce what they produced and that’s 25:00 the question we beg to differ with all 25:03 the time people don’t care they I mean I 25:06 think general public people care but 25:09 corporations don’t care how it was 25:11 produced 25:12 well once again vary their motivation 25:14 this maximizing profit that’s right and 25:16 we can we can lay a condemnation over 25:20 that and say that’s evil it is what it 25:23 is it is reality right these 25:25 corporations are motivated we don’t hold 25:27 them accountable no we don’t that 25:29 problem they get to do what they want to 25:31 do and exploit and and destroy okay so 25:35 we know we have unaccountable in 25:37 unaccountable corporations who are not 25:40 going to sell us the truth which is kind 25:42 of how you define marketing and then we 25:45 look to certification programs which may 25:47 or may not be legitimate or right to 25:50 find some kind of guide right so so what 25:53 is your solution we’ve got about two 25:55 minutes here all right well the same 25:57 solution that comes out in every program 25:59 and that is as much as possible to shop 26:03 in small shops and know your farmer know 26:07 the person producing it know the people 26:11 you’re doing business with this is 26:13 old-fashioned as can be but it’s what 26:15 works because if I know where that food 26:17 came from or that product came from and 26:20 I know how is produced everybody’s going 26:23 to do better there’s going to be more 26:25 money in the in the community there’s 26:30 going to be more money in that person’s 26:32 community that produced the product 26:34 they’re gonna have more help I’m going 26:36 to have more health it’s just 26:38 gonna be a win win win all the way 26:40 around and so it isn’t a question of oh 26:43 I can’t find that product I have to go 26:45 to Walmart or Amazon it’s takes planning 26:48 it takes knowing what you need I mean we 26:50 have an annual shopping list that we use 26:53 so we have a good idea of what we need 26:55 so we can say there’s this small 26:57 business or this time of year there’s 26:59 this kind of yard sale or clothing swaps 27:03 or whatever that is once again using 27:06 less but and quality costs money so if 27:11 you’re not paying for the true cost as 27:14 you like to harp on somehow those 27:17 harping on it it’s a lovely sound then 27:24 that that cost is being externalized to 27:27 someone else 27:27 well the thing we saw in France that 27:30 people might only have one business suit 27:32 but it’s a really really nice business 27:34 suit and they might only have really one 27:37 very nice winter jacket but they’re 27:41 gonna invest in that and wear it till 27:44 it’s dead and I think the bottom line 27:46 hopefully the takeaway from this 27:47 conversation is you have to assume that 27:50 these corporations when they’re 27:51 marketing themselves as green assume 27:53 they’re lying until they prove otherwise 27:55 absolutely absolutely so the first thing 27:58 I do is look at the label and see what 28:00 it’s telling me I’m looking for non-gmo 28:02 and then I’m gonna look at the 28:04 ingredients and the ingredients are 28:05 gonna tell me the truth 28:07 well you’ve been listening to when the 28:09 biomass it’s the wind turbine with Jay 28:11 and Annie Warmke along with our 28:13 producer Adam Rich we want to thank you 28:15 for spending just a wee bit of time with 28:17 us and as your grandmother 28:18 hopefully told you the secret to a happy 28:20 and sustainable life say nice with 28:23 others clean up your own mess and for 28:25 heaven’s sake eat those locally grown 28:27 vegetables till next 28:51 [Music] 29:01 you can find more information on living 29:03 sustainably in our unsustainable world 29:06 at Blue Rock station calm 29:12 you 29:13 [Music]