The text is auto generated, so sorry if there are some odd translations…
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welcome to this edition of when the
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biomass it’s the wind turbine a
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discussion of sustainable living and
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what that means to you and me I’m Jay
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Warmke
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I’m Annie Warmke and today we’re gonna
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talk about the regulations surrounding
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sustainability or why is everything I
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want to do illegal
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I don’t know I’m confused already well
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that’s it that’s the title of a book and
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I’ll give credit to Joel Salatin I know
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he’s one of your favorite guys and from
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Polyface farm and one of the things he
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brings up is is essentially he’s famous
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within the organic food industry attends
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like speaks at every conference we’ve
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ever gone to I think and he talks a lot
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about the illegalities surrounding food
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you know trying to provide food that
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you’ve grown yourself to the market and
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how government steps in with one
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regulation after another regulation
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after another regulation that makes that
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process pretty much illegal and and one
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that I was reading about from his
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perspective which was interesting he
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raises a lot of meat products and
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apparently it is against the law to
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butcher your own meat at your farm so it
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has to be taken off-site and processed
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at an arbitrage okay I just want to say
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that it’s not illegal to do that if you
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have a certain number and it’s for your
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own use it’s for the right if you’re
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wanting to sell it yes so but his
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argument was okay I am being forced by
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the government to take these to another
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location but then when I bring that
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material that meat back to sell it on my
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farm the government then says oh that’s
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a product that was not from your farm
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it’s from another location and therefore
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you fall under a whole bunch of other
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regulations that are pretty much the
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same regulations that apply to the large
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grocery stores the government loves
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bacteria and they create these
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situations so we can just generate lots
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more bacteria and lots more opportunity
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for foreign things that don’t belong
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there to exist one of the things you’re
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describing is the issue that big farms
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corporate farms these ones that have you
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know thousands of pigs thousands of
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chickens whatever they create lots of
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problems they’re toxic waste dumps
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basically and the people who work there
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are the factory workers and it’s a sad
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commentary on our culture but what
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happens then is they do things like
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create a coli outbreaks and recalls of
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food and things like that and then they
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decide the government says all right our
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first response to all of that is to make
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more laws and then those laws trickle
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down to the small farmer and then we
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have to comply which is sometimes not
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realistic so we’re going to make a
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choice we go out of the business or we
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stop doing one leg of what we do or we
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break the law and a lot of these laws
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that are passed are are lobbied for and
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and created on behalf of these large
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farmers and and it’s one thing that if
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you’ve got 10,000 animals that you’re
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processing you can afford to invest
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$10,000 $20,000 in a thing whatever that
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thing happens to be that then complies
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with the law but if you’re raising 50
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chickens and then you’re required to
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invest $20,000 in that same it puts you
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out of business and that’s intentional
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or unintentional doesn’t really matter
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but it’s the result well it’s also the
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fact that the small farmer doesn’t
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really have a voice we don’t have big
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lobbyists but what I remember and I’ll
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you know when when they were having the
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avian flu scare and and they decided
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that it was because of these disease
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within chickens well cuz because we have
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free-range
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well that was little sparrows and things
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can come and get in the feed and they’re
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bringing the disease well and that was
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the that was the wacko end result of all
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of this is the government came back and
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said well these large factory farms with
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hundreds of thousands of animals packed
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together in six feet of chicken the new
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you know are clean and hermetically
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sealed and therefore aren’t a problem
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but it’s you know it’s Aunt May with her
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six chickens in the backyard yes those
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are the ones that are causing the Robins
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and kill everything right they’re not
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sick or not so anyway the the thing I
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would say too is that what you’re also
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talking about when you talk about the
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likes of material Salatin is that there
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are people who decide they’re going to
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push the law and so you got to know what
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the law is before you’re going to break
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it and I think you know one of the
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challenges is that if you defy the law
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as mr. selatin has done in the past then
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you bring the law down on you and then
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you make it harder for the rest of us it
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doesn’t change things for the better I
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think we we have to understand what’s
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the limit of how many birds that we can
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grow out to be able to butcher and how
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we can kill those birds on our own
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property
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maybe we form collectives or whatever
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but again it comes back to I’ve got to
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know what those rules are before I’m
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going to break them and that applies to
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whether its food or buildings or well
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and I think that’s the point of this
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show because I really don’t want it to
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be a rant against how stupid the
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government has set these things up I
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want it to be more more helpful and say
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okay well what are some of these
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regulations and one of the regulations
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that came about as a response for people
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who didn’t trust the food that they were
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consuming is let’s just talk a second
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about organics because organics was this
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leo I want to be pure I want only
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organically created and raised food so
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how is that morphed what’s what’s going
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on with the whole world of organics
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first off what do you need to be organic
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what do you need I think organics really
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started back like in the 50s with the
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Rodell people over in Pennsylvania and
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they were I think the first people who
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really coined that whole thing about
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organic food and stuff like that and and
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they put their money where their mouth
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was and what they did was they
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embellished the soil they use natural
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things to embellish the soil like fish
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emulsion and poo for man they’re saying
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we’re not going to use chemicals right
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so they moved away from chemical use and
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they also said things like about
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heirloom plants versus genetically
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modified plants because they were still
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they were starting to do some of that
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even in those days and so when we talk
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about the word organic we mean the word
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natural we can just well that’s what
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people think of but but it doesn’t mean
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that legally anymore well the thing is
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that organic has its own quality
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depending on what you’re laying it on to
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so if it’s seeds or its food or its meat
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you know it’s how aunt livestock are
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raised they just have it’s just
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different for every but you have to be
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certified organic now typically that’s
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right or you can do what’s called
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naturally raised so there’s a National
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naturally raised but isn’t isn’t
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petroleum natural I mean it wasn’t
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invented by some magician somewhere I
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mean it’s like organic cotton and then
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you see it was grown in Egypt and picked
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by four-year-old children you know so
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the reality is that organic is is
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defined by something natural and I’m
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just going to say that because it’s it
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has morphed into other definitions and
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if you go to like the organic farm
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people and you start to raise these
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issues they they deny that it’s really
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morphed over time or anything like that
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so I don’t really want to get in right
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okay so I guess where I’m coming from is
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that the organic term started out with
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this thing of saying okay I want
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something that’s natural something
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that’s not chemical it’s become a
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bureaucracy in and of itself a process
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that people go through to get this right
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because the government stepped in and
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said anybody could call themselves
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organic we’re gonna put some rules in
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here and the rules have now morphed over
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time to essentially allow large
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corporate entities to stick that label
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on so that they’re like Walmart when
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Walmart says Walmart organic that’s an
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oxymoron it comes from China so
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now we’re back now we’re back to the
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idea that organic means essentially
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doesn’t give you that warm and fuzzy you
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can’t really but there are ways to
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control that and and one of those ways
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is to know where your food’s right in
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the crunch down to right so we go back
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to the idea of farmers who butcher on
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their own land or whatever and in this
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state of Ohio and some other states it
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is possible to butcher on your own farm
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and sell from there but if you take it
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to a processor that processor has to
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have a federal inspector and you know
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it’s got to be a certain temperature and
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all that stuff and and so the problem is
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that we have we understand that there
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are ways that we can raise food and grow
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food and and raise livestock for butcher
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and eggs and all that kind of stuff and
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you know we can go through trainings
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they have something called a gap
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training now that they like farmers to
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go through if they’re going to sell at a
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farmers market or a produce auction and
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and it basically is a safety training
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but it does move away from using manure
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for fertilizer and things like that and
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so it gets very confusing in the process
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when we say look our goal is to raise
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food in a natural way as to save seeds
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to do all those kind of things there are
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rules and regulations for all of that
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kind of stuff
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okay and some of those rules and
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regulations for instance most states
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will allow you if you’re raising or
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selling your own things they’ll allow
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you to sell baked goods jams jellies
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anything that doesn’t really require
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refrigeration they’ll allow you as long
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as you then say this item is home
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produced and and as I recall a lot of
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this came from the Amish you know
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pushing through saying okay this is so
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low they don’t they don’t believe in
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government but they’re advocates I guess
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and and acid acidified like pickling
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aside acidified that’s a better way of
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saying that you know can pressure can
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things like that so as and that seems to
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make a certain amount of common sense
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saying okay if this is a fairly benign
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fairly safe food
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that’s that you mean in its own right
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yeah yeah yeah I mean you would trust
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your aunt to make it for you you know
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okay there’s the there’s the problem
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there’s the rub because for example you
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if you don’t know that person you don’t
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know really how that person produced
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that food and you don’t know what
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existed in that building where that food
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was produced so there is some reason
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there but it’s gone overboard where’s
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the balance here there I’m gonna give
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these guys the benefit of a doubt
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because they’re there they’re not
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getting up every day saying these guys
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the regulator’s they’re not getting up
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every day saying how can we how can we
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you know mess with the small family
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farmer they’re saying just because it’s
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not your aunt it’s someone you don’t
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know you can’t look inside their kitchen
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you can’t look inside their baby if
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there’s a reasonable expectation this
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food is safe we’re gonna let you sell it
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and as long as you put some identifying
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on like this is this is home produced as
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opposed to and like that’s you know I
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don’t know why that makes it saying it’s
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just telling you it didn’t come through
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a factory that was whatever but let’s
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talk a second about selling eggs so in
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Europe most the places I’ve been in
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Europe you can buy eggs that are that
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days eggs and then there’s a sign for
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another stack that says day-old eggs
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anyway those eggs are not washed they’re
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sold in half dozen containers cardboard
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yeah they’re not refrigerated no they
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are not refrigerated but the reason is
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they don’t need to be because when an
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egg is laid that that hen is really
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brilliant
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she puts a coating on that egg that
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creates barrier to bacteria because she
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needs that egg to last at least a month
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if she’s going to set on it and she
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needs it not to get bacteria in it
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so we take this egg that’s perfectly
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fine that might need a little rubbing
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off maybe there’s a little bit of dirt
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on it or maybe nobody cares and then we
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wash it and we take away all the barrier
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that’s protecting it and we put it in
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environment where we think because it’s
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refrigerated all will be well but it’s
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not always the
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case right so basically you’re taking a
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product that is inherently safe cleaning
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it and making it look pretty you’re
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making it inherently unsafe and then
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you’re trying to act like look eggs are
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dangerous you know it’s like all right
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they’re only dangerous because you made
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me wash it yeah yeah so that’s the
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problem and they’re all kind of warnings
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on egg cartons now that have to be there
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so because of these problems it’s a
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wonder we ever survived yeah well anyway
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you are listening to when the biomass
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hits the wind turbine with Jay and Annie
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Warmke reminding you and all those egg
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producers out there that it is the end
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of the world as we know it for that
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omelet it’s the end of the world
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so anyway so there’s a lot of rules
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around eggs I know that if you’re
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raising 500 or fewer birds that you
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don’t need a permit typically to sell
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yes okay yeah otherwise you’ll you need
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a permit okay and and there but they
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also say they must be refrigerated which
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gets through that whole thing of the
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reality is in most of the world people
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don’t refrigerate their eggs because
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this is if this is less less than 500
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we’re in the world of less than 500 ok
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499 Birds that’s a commercial that’s not
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that’s not the guy yo nice but let’s
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talk about the guy who’s just on his
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farm with a dozen chickens ok all right
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but they still need to be refrigerated
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which is kind of silly well how do you
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prove that well that’s one of the things
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I mean just because we passing just
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because we pass a law doesn’t mean we
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have to enforce that’s right we’re only
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gonna pick on the guy that we don’t like
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and then we’re gonna enforce it ok so
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anyway so there are some rules there
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about how they’re supposed to be labeled
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Mike let’s talk about just the
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difference between that egg when it’s
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grown in a commercial ok you’re fixated
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on eggs no no no but I just want to
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point out you asked me the definition of
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organic so I’m just gonna walk you
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through because this is a great example
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so the eggs that you’re buying in the
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store it might say caged free free range
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baby
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well free-range often means that at the
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last day or two
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they’re outside in the Sun somewhere but
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almost always those terms are carefully
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crafted by marketers to make you think
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that those eggs are organic and natural
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so if we want to have an organic egg
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first of all it’s got to have a feed
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that has a variety of grains in it often
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called layer mash and that animal also
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has to have the ability to roam but have
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food in front of it all the time and
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clean water that animal then these are
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not me setting these guidelines these
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are set by humane treatment of animals
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they also need to have in under the
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definition of organic they need to be
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able to be out where there’s sunlight a
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major part of the day they also have to
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have the ability to scratch and have
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their own space so they are able to eat
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bugs because they’re omnivores and they
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need a variety of food and and they also
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have to be humanely butchered so these
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are all parts of the organic world that
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should be the definition of how we eat
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something this organic so then that
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animal that birds going to lay an egg
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that egg that comes from that bird that
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ate non GMO food and saw the light of
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day and ate bugs your body is going to
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use that in a very healthy way no no no
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from my experience it’s a very different
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looking thing it tastes different
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oh yeah that’s right but even beyond
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that so people can say well whatever but
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if you buy an egg from the grocery store
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most grocery stores 99% of those eggs
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are not going to be an animal that’s
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seen the light of day had non GMO food
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eaten bugs so that egg when you ingest
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it is going to be used very differently
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and not necessarily in a positive way by
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your body okay but this is not a show
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about eggs this is a shoelace yes you
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asked me the definition of organic yes
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you did they’re so long ago I’ve
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forgotten so anyway okay so so when we
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talk about other rules other rules like
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away from doing your bake
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like we’ve run into these situations
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like with commercial kitchens commercial
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kitchens there are some of some
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communities have set up commercial
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kitchens that you can share in well
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that’s the whole point of commercial
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kitchen is that it’s set up to meet the
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regulations that the government set so
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if you want to produce a product there
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whether it’s a baked good or it’s a jam
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or something you’ve can dog food it
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doesn’t matter whatever you want to
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produce in that commercial kitchen then
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that gives you the right to commercially
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sell that product right because a lot of
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smaller businesses cannot afford the
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investment now that’s required to create
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a commercial kitchen so there’s an
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alternative there to say okay let’s have
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a community commercial kitchen that we
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can use for that period of time but but
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when and how you need a commercial
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kitchen is gonna be dependent upon what
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you’re producing and how matter how much
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of it you’re producing so you really
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need to talk to your what County Health
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Department to see is this product that
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I’m going to be producing does it
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require a commercial kitchen it’s funny
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at Blue Rock station we had that
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situation where somebody had questioned
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whether we needed a commercial kitchen
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because we served or you serve some
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cookies or something to guess and it
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cracked me up because this is where the
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laws get really goofy they ruled that we
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did not we did not fall under the laws
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that deal with commercial kitchens but
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in order to comply with the law that we
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don’t need to comply with we had to put
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a sign up saying we did not need to
19:39
comply with that okay it had to do with
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licensing I know but that was silly so
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we really did listen to the absurdity of
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it the law does not apply to you but you
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must put up a sign saying that the law
19:50
does not comply to you otherwise you are
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in violation of the law that doesn’t
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come that doesn’t apply to you but I
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just want to say that’s my rent that
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they that the thing is that the law in
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each state is different and it tells you
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and and maybe even in your county may
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have some different requirements that
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basically say what you have to do if you
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are going to serve food that you produce
20:13
there or even if you bring it from
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somewhere else that’s legally produced
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in another place how many meals you’re
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allowed to serve without a license and
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that’s so the question was not really
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about how the food was produced but it
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was the fact that we didn’t possess a
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license and then they said under the
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Revised Code for the state we had to
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have a sign that said we weren’t
20:35
required to have a license because cuz
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obviously then every time you had dinner
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guests over you might have to have a
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license I mean if it was going to apply
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that’s right if you feed so many meals
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well if you charge money so that’s the
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thing of it if you don’t then then that
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might be something different what the
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laws speaking of rants I’m gonna throw
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raw milk out at you because this is one
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of your pet peeves being a dairy goat
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farmer Rancher whatever herder herder
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mm-hmm okay well let’s hear from the
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herder so talk a little bit about the
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raw milk issues cuz that again varies
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from state to state and locale
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yeah well this each state is unique and
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how they deal with raw milk and some
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states think raw milks really the best
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thing that could possibly happen in
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other states think it’s worse than
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having a newsie it’s so funny you walk
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one mile over the border and it’s like
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we love it we love it you’re gonna cheat
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but don’t take milk over the border and
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try to sell it because then you’ll get
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into the feds and then you will go to
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prison
21:37
so so raw milk it means you know that
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it’s not pasteurized it’s not heated
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past the point of basically destroying
21:45
all the good bacteria that’s in it plus
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supposedly bad bacteria colored water
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yeah and so raw milk is a really
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tremendous food and and so then we
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pasteurize it and we destroy it so there
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are some creameries now because you’ll
22:04
know if it says creamery a lot of times
22:06
it’s going to be a more healthy kind of
22:07
product coming out of there and they do
22:09
use a certain level of pasteurization
22:11
but it’s not high heat so milk can can
22:17
be better for you if it’s not ultra
22:18
pasteurized as the wording but raw milk
22:21
is pretty terrific and a lot of times
22:24
people want to have raw milk for a
22:26
variety of reasons whether it’s health
22:28
or may
22:29
be like with goat milk raw goat milk for
22:32
a baby that can’t handle lactose and but
22:37
the laws are really really tough in
22:39
states where they don’t like raw milk
22:41
and this is you can watch the
22:44
progression of how this happened because
22:46
in the 30s the government decided that
22:49
all milk needed to be cooked before it
22:52
could be ingest and that was a that was
22:54
a reaction to basically unhygenic
22:58
processes that were happening in a lot
23:00
of dairies and people were getting sick
23:01
right so it seems oh I don’t think so I
23:03
don’t see that in history it was the
23:06
government regulation coming in beggar
23:08
farmers that had bigger dairies coming
23:11
in I mean they were doing it not for the
23:13
reasons they said but for their own so a
23:18
lot of these small farms a lot of these
23:21
small farms that were you know
23:23
maybe selling a little bit of milk here
23:25
and there they they when they stopped
23:28
doing it and they because they didn’t
23:30
want to be involved in the process or be
23:32
inspected or whatever and so over time
23:35
when you look at the history of diseases
23:38
and illness that has come out of milk
23:40
consumption up until a couple of years
23:43
ago there were 19 cases of Listeria
23:48
which is a really can be a deadly
23:50
bacteria and that if you ingested it’s
23:53
in milk and of those 19 cases two of
23:58
them came from farms the 17 the other 17
24:01
came from milk in a in from the grocery
24:05
store they’ve been pasteurized and
24:08
recently there’s been a lot more of
24:10
these kind of cases in ice cream and
24:11
things like that and again but that’s
24:14
not coming from the small farmer that’s
24:17
coming from the big dairy farm so
24:19
basically they’re saying you must
24:21
pasteurize your milk to protect you from
24:24
diseases that predominantly come from
24:26
pasteurized milk from big dairies yes
24:29
well that’s the same problem over and
24:31
over so mm-hmm
24:33
so so raw milk is an issue and we’ve
24:36
talked about this with politicians that
24:38
come to Blue Rock station where we say
24:40
all right
24:42
you know you come here and you say that
24:45
it is illegal to sell raw milk or we’re
24:48
all milk products because it’s too
24:49
dangerous but I can go to any flea
24:52
market and buy an ak-47 you know so yeah
24:54
so it’s what they choose to to discuss
25:00
or what they choose to regulate and it’s
25:02
the rhetoric typically has very little
25:04
to do with what the motivation is behind
25:06
it’s also who are the lobbyists where’s
25:09
the big money you know who’s who’s paid
25:12
the politicians for their elections you
25:16
get the best government you pay for so
25:21
let’s jump off of let’s go into because
25:27
this whole food thing is is even beyond
25:29
that you know it’s one thing to live in
25:31
a farm and and we raise some dairy goats
25:33
and some chickens but what if you live
25:35
in a city or a suburb and there’s a
25:37
whole whole thing around you know
25:40
basically the government has has decided
25:43
they call them food producing animals
25:45
they don’t want to call them livestock
25:47
or whatever I guess you could eat your
25:49
Chihuahua but they don’t guinea pigs
25:51
rabbits
25:52
well actually rabbits fall within this
25:54
food producing and that’s right any pigs
25:57
could too if you had enough of them so
25:58
they they talk about large animals you
26:01
know and and the issues that are raised
26:03
when you’re talking about raising
26:05
livestock in a in a confined area such
26:07
as there’s the same issues that apply on
26:09
a farm but they identify them as humane
26:12
issues
26:13
nuisance issues which are noise waste
26:19
disposal what do you do with all the
26:21
manure and the like setbacks that’s it
26:23
that’s a that’s probably the worst issue
26:25
here because people can only can only
26:30
compost so much of the manure and so
26:32
they ended up they end up putting it in
26:34
a bag to go with their garbage but every
26:37
every municipality is going to have some
26:40
kind of regulation around this this
26:42
issue of keeping animals for eggs or
26:45
meat or manure whatever you’re doing
26:48
with it
26:48
and what’s happened is there’s a growing
26:51
industry around this of products and
26:55
chicken tractors and things like that
26:57
because lots of people have begun to
27:00
keep chickens in their backyard or keep
27:03
a goat or rabbits or whatever for meat
27:07
and and so the growing part of the
27:11
government has been like for example in
27:14
some cities where there has been no
27:16
regulation suddenly it’s $1,000 to have
27:18
chickens because you have to have a
27:20
certain kind of mat for underneath the
27:22
chicken trap chicken house you have to
27:25
have inspections of the chickens you
27:28
have to have the chickens inoculated you
27:31
and then every year you have to have an
27:33
inspection that you pay for and you have
27:35
to have a license so these are expensive
27:37
chickens they are but I guess if you
27:40
want real food and you want to be
27:42
healthy then people are willing to
27:44
invest in that and that’s what’s
27:45
happening so this is a challenge in
27:49
municipalities in a county then there’s
27:51
less regulation again there would be
27:53
some regulations in some places but you
27:56
know know the law if you’re gonna think
27:59
about breaking it and one thing that
28:01
came up when I was looking this up is
28:02
about bees you know raising bees in the
28:04
city which struck me as like a fairly
28:07
innocuous occupation but apparently
28:10
people freaked out and well people are
28:11
terrified snakes and bees so well it
28:15
wasn’t gonna raise smells but these are
28:17
terrifying to people and they think
28:19
every sting is gonna be death okay well
28:22
you have been listening to when the
28:24
biomass it’s the wind turbine with Jay
28:26
and Annie Warmke we want to thank our
28:28
award-winning producer Adam Rich oh yeah
28:30
and we want to thank you also for just
28:33
spending a little bit of time with us
28:34
and as your grandmother and our bees
28:36
told you the secret to a happy and
28:38
sustainable life is play nice with
28:41
others clean up your own mess and eat
28:43
your vegetables vegetables
28:47
[Music]
29:15
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29:21
you can find more information on living
29:24
sustainably in our unsustainable world
29:26
at Blue Rock station calm
29:32
you
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